Your link is broken, I had to find it another way. Here’s the present active link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uxt9HwfPwPo

I don’t agree with the ”sentiments” in this film, and neither do most Israelis that I associate with. It’s easy to focus a clip on a single group of drunken students (most of them apparently US Americans and many of them self-declared republicans) and claim that they mirror Israeli public opinion. They don’t.

This film was made on a Wednesday night, a night when most Israelis that age are in their army bases or camps. Most likely they’re college or yeshiva students on one of those one-year exchange programs from the US. The accents were certainly indicative of US Americans. One mentioned his ”gun rights” - which certainly makes him a US American, while another claimed to have worked for Obama’s campaign - another US American. To claim that they reflect Israeli public opinion would be like trying to claim that foreign students in the US reflect US public opinion.

How about a little balance? Here’s a quote by Jeffery Goldberg, endorsed by the clip’s coproducer, Joseph Dana (Ibn Ezra):

Perhaps a starting point for real discussion about this video would be his [Jeffrey Goldberg’s] statement in the Atlantic:
”Max Blumenthal goes to downtown Jerusalem and prompts drunk American Jewish kids to say horrible things about Obama. On the one hand, Blumenthal is an exploiter who doesn’t seem to like Israel very much; on the other hand, the things these pathetic kids say are repulsive and the yeshivas that sent them to Israel are due for a serious soul-search this Yom Kippur. Their children are an embarrassment to Judaism.”

I agree with Mr. Dana and Mr Goldberg on this point.

Just as ”New York isn’t America” and ”London is not Great Britain”, Jerusalem is not Israel... and none of these great cities are representative of national opinion.

These are Americans not Israelis!! This is what American youngsters do. They get drunk and act retarded!

They go to Israel for the summers to work and go to school. Believe me you will rarely ever see an Israeli lose control. They are not big drinkers like Americans kids are.

Nothing could be more wrong with your assumption. These were US American students or volunteers, and obviously not too bright, drunk and talking trash. They do NOT represent Israeli public opinion, period. One has to wonder about the producer’s agenda.

Marcus: “Israel and America have enjoyed a relationship based mostly on convenience. We have a massive, Jewish constituency that is represented in Corporate America. With that representation comes power and influence.”

Pardon me for mentioning this, but you almost sound like one of those claims that “the Jews control the media, banks and business…”

Marcus: “Unfortunately, most of these individuals aren’t fans of a biracial president being elected. They are especially irriated when that president threatens to take from their accumulated wealth as to grant economic fairness to the masses living paycheck to paycheck.”

That’s an internal matter for the US to deal with and has nothing to do with Israel. We did not elect him and we can’t refuse to recognize his authority as the President of the United States—nor do we. However, we have the right to disagree with his position on issues that affect Israel’s security and well-being.

Marcus: “But, the Israeli government isn’t particularly pleased that Obama talked to Islamic countries in the Middle East before speaking to them. Why is that? One of the reasons for the ongoing conflict involves America allegedly supporting the forced occupation of citizens in Gaza.”

Don’t you think it would have been appropriate for a US president to speak to an ally before speaking to that ally’s enemies? No one blamed Franklin Roosevelt for speaking to the British before he spoke with the German government between 1939 and 1941.

Marcus: “Max Blumenthal probably has ulterior motives for doing his report. But, the fact remains that Obama was disrespected during his visit at Jersualem’s Wailing Wall some time ago.”

Disrespected by whom?

Marcus: “For some reason, Israeli citizens focus on his Kenyan origin and put the ‘Muslim’ tag on him. Why is that? Not all Muslims want Jews exterminated or driven to sea? I believe a lot of paranoia is centered into your nation’s consciousness.”

I’d like some references to prove this, since I haven’t seen anything of the kind in the Hebrew papers. As far as we know, he is a US American, born in Hawaii, of a Kenyan father and a US American mother. His religion is his own business, until it affects his performance as president. Then it becomes the business of the American people.

Paranoia? Perhaps there is. Why don’t you try living in a country where 55 out of 57 Islamic countries are in a declared state of war with yours, simply because you exist—then we can talk about being paranoid. Have you ever read any of the newspapers from these Islamic countries? Try it some time, comparing them to western papers on the same topics.

Marcus: “Also, foreign students are able to claim a nation’s public opinion if they adopt that opinion while there.”

I said they do not represent Israeli public opinion, and I stand by that statement. If you listen carefully to what they say (although most of what they say is pretty disgusting), these young people brought their opinions with them from the US. As an example, one of them spoke about his “gun rights”—this is a topic not relevant here in Israel because there are no “Second Amendment” rights and gun ownership here has some pretty strict rules—far stricter than the strictest US state.

Marcus: “White Americans want Obama discredited, impeached or dead. The student that called for his assassination is an American, but he is also Jewish. All of the sudden, he is a “stranger to your race”? I think not. Obama is doing the job your nation should’ve already done. The wars between Israelis and Arabs are ridiculous. Do you both even know what you’re trying to accomplish in victory?”

Once again, I disavow him as an Israeli or representing Israeli public opinion. If he’s Jewish, he certainly made a statement that’s unacceptable under any circumstances. Neither Judaism nor being Israeli is a “race”, but the commandment says literally, “Thou shalt not murder”, so if he advocates assassinating anyone, he is speaking against the principles of Judaism.

Obama is trying to do a job that more than one competent person has failed at, and he will fail too, if he refuses to examine the entire history of the conflict. Appeasement did not work with Germany and it will not work with the Muslim world. Israel has this quaint objection to becoming another Czechoslovakia.

Your comment about the wars being “ridiculous” is extremely offensive—almost as offensive as the wars started by the Arab countries. Would you have us lay down and die without defending ourselves? It only takes one side to start a war, but two sides to make peace.

Marcus: “Yitzhak Rabin is recognized for trying to bring peace between both groups. However, he died at the hands of a Jewish extremist. It has been 28 years since an assailant attempted to murder our Commander-in-Chief. Unfortunately, Obama may be next in line because of bigotry and racism.”

Personally, I don’t care if Obama is black, white or purple with pink polka-dots. It would be a bad day for the US and for the world in general if Barak Obama were assassinated. Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli extremist who was convinced that the peace process would be stopped if he died. Assassinations of world leaders are generally carried out by a citizen of the same country as the leader—look to the US for potential assassins, not elsewhere.

I have my doubts whether or not Rabin would have succeeded with Yasser Arafat, Mahmoud Abbas or Hamas. Not because of his views, which I greatly respect and honor, but because of the actions of the Palestinian leaders. It still takes two sides to make peace—a unilateral peace is no peace at all, just a surrender to extermination.

Marcus: “I respectfully disagree with everything you brought up. It does sound like paranoia and that’s scary.”

When you are faced with statements like these frequently, sometimes almost daily, would you consider concern to be “paranoid”?

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2099.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2106.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2080.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2077.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2058.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2042.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1940.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1922.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1916.htm

Marcus: “There are Israelis who want their government to make peace. There are Israelis who don’t want peace. These Israelis have the same desires for Arabs to be exterminated as Arab extremists desire for Israelis to be. I see that in photos of Gaza buildings destroyed by your military last January.”

Why don’t you look at these videos, too: http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk

Much of your commentary sounds as if your sources are almost invariably one-sided. Try looking at information from the “other side”, too. Hamas has been better at “fauxtography” than Hizballah, having learned form the mistakes that Hizballah made two years previously. Also, there were a number of Hamas photos showing buildings that could not have been destroyed so thoroughly by aerial bombardment from tactical airplanes (the IDF has no “strategic bombers”) without secondary explosions (such as burning munitions “cooking off” or exploding sympathetically) augmenting the destruction. International law defines storing weapons in civilian-populated areas as a war crime.

Marcus: “Also, Obama’s discussions with Muslim countries really had nothing to do with you. He apologized for our Republican administrations’ arrogance toward the Middle East region. Reagan and both Bush leaders did terrific damage to relations that contributed to the bloodshed your nation has been victimized with. In no way was Obama trying to gain an alliance against Israel.”

The US has meddled in the Middle East long enough—ever since WW II. Unless and until it can come up with someone capable who can understand the mentality, they will continue to have just as much success as the have had to date: none.

Pardon my candor, but Obama is an innocent among wolves who will eat him alive unless he learns fast.

Marcus: “In regards to the video, there were Israeli students using racial epithets in that 3.52 clip. They had their choice to say nothing. They chose to speak their minds. In doing so, they became bigots.”

I agree with you about the bigotry—as for their minds: “the wine was in and the wit was out”. I have some questions and comments, though. There was not a single Israeli interviewed on this clip. All of those interviewed were speaking colloquial, American-accented English. The venue was a party of far right-wing “settler” movement members, many of whom, to my shame and disgust, are American Jews who have no idea about the politics or history of Israel. Did you notice the girl who answered the question, “What’s your opinion of Netanyahu?” with the question, “Who’s Netanyahu?”

It’s interesting to note that almost all of the interviewer’s questions were edited out. I wonder how his questions were worded and why the questions that received the most bigoted responses were edited out. There’s little doubt in my mind that this video was a deliberately instigated “hatchet job” and that the target group was chosen carefully and led by the interviewer to make the most outrageous comments he could solicit.

Mind you, I’m not defending a single word these kids said—but once again, their comments do not represent Israeli public opinion, which is pretty fragmented regarding Obama, ranging from distrust to open admiration.

Marcus: “America has supported Israel for decades. That support has been misconstrued by Islamic nations and we’ve paid for it with American citizens’ lives. I haven’t seen Israeli soldiers policing Iraq. But, America sent Marines to Lebanon on Israel’s behalf and lost 243 to a suicide bomber (1983).”

Well, from my point of view, US support has been inconsistent, at best. With all due respect to US victims, Israel spend more than 30 years of conflict as a “proving ground” for US weaponry against Soviet weaponry, leading to changes in NATO doctrines, tactics and strategies without shedding a drop of US or European blood—just Israeli blood. The US sent Marines to Lebanon for the benefit of Lebanon, not Israel, as part of the attempted disengagement started when the PLO was expelled by Israel in 1982. I was there, as an IDF soldier in Lebanon (reservist), one of those who brought warnings to the Marine HQ at Beirut Airport that a Shi’ite terror group (not yet known as Hizballah) might attempt an attack on the airport—warnings that were disregarded by the Marine commanders.

Marcus: “Clinton, Bush and Obama had expressed that peace must be achieved in the Middle East. I read about the 3,000 Katusyha rockets being launched in the Golan Heights. I read about the Palestinian laborer who bulldozed his way in Tel Aviv killing six civilians. But, I also read about 1,200 Gaza inhabitants and militants killed in your army’s ground offensive. I also read about the revenge assassinations (ie: missile attacks on public streets) of Hamas leaders that have killed civilians as well. Both parties committed atrocities. However, your nation’s atrocities had far-reaching consequences.”

Your information is somewhat inaccurate: during the war with Hizballah, more than 4,000 Katyusha and Grad rockets landed in Israel, fired indiscriminately by Hizballah. Almost as many missiles landed in Israeli Arab towns as in Jewish ones. As many Israeli Arabs were killed by Hizballah as Jews—including a number of children. Now we come to an area where I have some specific expertise… during the first Lebanon war in 1982, I was a forward artillery observer for an Israeli Katyusha unit (made up mostly of launching vehicles captured during the 6-Day War, using stockpiles of 122 mm Katyusha rockets taken from the PLO during the first days of the Lebanon war—almost 9,000 of these missiles, still in their Soviet shipping crates, were captured in southern Lebanon). These rockets, the same ones that Hizballah now uses, are notoriously inaccurate, UNLESS you have a forward observer who can direct the missile targeting with precise map coordinates. In simple words, it’s a “fire and forget” weapon with no internal guidance systems. The only way to fire them accurately at any range is with reliable forward observation information and very precise aiming in accordance with the results of some extremely complex calculations that take weather conditions, wind, humidity and a dozen other factors into account. For all the accuracy Hizballah can depend on, they would be able to throw rocks more accurately.

Marcus: “I didn’t say you should ‘just lay down and die without defending yourselves’. But, the Six-Day War ended 30 years ago. Your military targeted heavily populated, civilian neighborhoods in order to root out a hundred or so guerrillas. What were you trying to defend yourself against?”

As a matter of fact, we just celebrated the 42nd anniversary of the 6-Day War… but that’s neither here nor there. What were we defending ourselves against? How about trying to stop the 6,000 or so Qassam and Katyusha missiles and mortar bombs fired into civilian towns in Israel between the Hamas elections of 2006 and the end of 2008?

The IDF targeted weapons positions and stockpiles that Hamas deliberately located in built up, populated areas (which is, by the way, in itself a war crime—look it up), leaving the IDF with no choice if it wanted to go after the enemy. Try telling Hamas to remove their weapons stores from the mosques, schools and hospitals they hid them under (another war crime) or fired them from (an additional war crime). Blaming one side for “war crimes” when both sides are culpable is just the kind of pseudo-impartial bullshit that has made Israel “paranoid” (your word).

“A hundred ‘guerrillas”? That’s straight out of the Hamas propaganda broadcasts. IDF figures claim at least 800 of those killed were under arms at the time of their death.

Marcus: “Your next generation represented themselves “well” in that Blumenthal video. Were they upset that McCain didn’t win? McCain wanted to invade Iran after conquering Iraq. He wanted to keep our soldiers in the Middle East on a permanent basis.”

I have no idea what they wanted—this is not the level of Israeli society that I travel in. Just for the record, I voted for Obama (absentee ballot), and I haven’t changed my mind… yet. His future actions will be the deciding factor on that.

Marcus: “Obama desired for peace and to get that he had to meet with Muslim countries to talk about peace. It wasn’t a slight against Israel. His meetings were to protect Israel from future, Arab aggression. Bush never met with hostile, Islamic leaders. He sent Condolezza Rice on those errands. He hid behind his Secretary of State. Obama did what Bush should’ve done in his first term and meet “the evil” eye to eye.”

Go to the MEMRI-TV web site and look through the clips by Muslim heads of state. You tell me if they sound like they want any kind of peace with the US or Israel. Some do—and they’re often fired or voted out of office in short order.

My own opinion is this: Israel has made enough “gestures” (withdrawal from Gaza, withdrawal from Lebanon, withdrawal from Sinai, allowing the establishment of the Palestinian Authority and more)—isn’t it about time the Arab world in general and the Palestinians in particular make a few “gestures” of their own?

Marcus: “You also said that Israel had no desire to be another Czechslovakia. Obama didn’t ask for you too. And, he wasn’t trying to appease the Muslim countries. He expressed the feelings that internationals have already ingrained in their psyches. He wanted to let them know that this America was going to be more understanding of their feelings. That past arrogance, disregard, disrespect and repugnant behavior was going to be left in the past.”

Given the wide-spread support of terrorism by Muslim countries, his speech seems to us too much like appeasement, and it worries us. Unless Obama can be even-handed (some reference to the Jewish refugees expelled from Arab lands during the conflict would be a good start), we will continue to be worried.

Marcus: “Obama was disrespected by Israelis during his visit to the Wailing Wall. His written prayer was stolen after he left.”

This was inexcusable and contrary to the rules enforced at the Western Wall. It is certainly not government policy. These notes are supposed to be personal and private—but there have been cases of greedy individuals stealing the notes of celebrities and selling them to the tabloids. I condemn the practice unconditionally, and look on it as a breach of privacy as great as any defense lawyer gossiping about his clients with a prosecutor.

Marcus: “War crimes are also when military deliberately targets civilians or civilian targets.”

If the case were as you say, then you would be right. Read the Geneva Convention thoroughly—it differentiates between “deliberately targeting civilian populations” and “targeting enemy installations deliberately placed in civilian-populated areas by the enemy”. The former IS a war crime, the latter IS NOT. Given the Hamas custom of using human shields (a war crime), which they openly admit, civilian casualties are almost inevitable, and, from the Hamas point of view, even desirable, in their PR war against Israel. See this video: http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1710.htm It shows a Hamas MP proudly stating that Hamas uses human shields—in other words, admitting that his “government” knowingly commits a war crime.

Marcus: “Your air force strafed populated neighborhoods populated with civilians. Now, Hamas launched attacks from some of those locations. Did I say Hamas wasn’t guilty of war crimes? No. But, your government committed a war crime just as Hamas did.”

Hamas did not only “launch attacks” from those locations. In war, enemy command posts, weapons stockpiles and resupply points are all legitimate targets of war. The fact that Hamas located them in high-density civilian populated areas is a war crime.

Marcus: “Also, Israeli students know perfect English as well. Just like German children know English. Just as Mexican students know English. English is a worldwide language practiced among First World and Second World members because they have monies and resources available to teach it.

“Don’t absolve these bigots for being racist just because they spoke perfect English.”

I “absolve” them from nothing. What I dispute is your assumption of their origin. How likely is it that among the half-dozen or so “Israelis” the interviewer spoke to, not one single interviewee spoke with anything BUT a recognizably US American accent? If you think it’s more likely than my winning the National Lottery here, then you just haven’t met many native-born Israelis.

Marcus: “Also, the anniversary of the Six Day War is indeed here and there. Your actions of continuing the oppression of Gaza civilians is prolonging the agony. You can’t demand your enemies to make peace by imprisoning and killing their constituents.”

The so-called “oppression” of the Gaza Palestinians is largely of their own making. Until the first Intifada there were no checkpoints, public buses and trains ran through Gaza as far as Rafiah and tens of thousands of Gazans commuted to work inside Israel daily. If the polls in Gaza taken by Palestinian surveys can be believed, over 90% of Gazans approve of the suicide/homicide bombings and Qassam firings into Israel, believe that “armed resistance” is the only possible path and that “there is no room for the Jews between the [Jordan] river and the [Mediterranean] sea.” If you want a real picture of an oppressive occupation, read this article entitled, “The Illegal Occupation of Gaza”: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1244034989178&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


Marcus: “Unfortunately, both Israelis and Arabs have only war between them. But, not every Israeli and Arab are fighting one another. Nevertheless, you have radicals among your group that wish to continue the bloodshed. Deal with them first and progress might be made.”

Marcus, progress can be made only if the radicals on BOTH sides are dealt with. To demand that only Israel do so is employing a double standard. To insinuate that Israel has not been dealing with extremists is simply a farce. The only political party ever outlawed in Israel was Meir Kahane’s racist party. His “disciples” are still under house arrest and subject to movement tracking. The forced evacuation of settlers from Gaza in 2005 was not a picnic, nor are the arrests and trials of those who incite violence. When do the Palestinians begin to work on their extremists… other than to receive approval expressed by no less a Palestinian persona than Mahmoud Abbas, the former PA President?

Marcus: “In addition, America has come to your nation’s aid since recognizing the state of Israel in 1948. You can’t say our government’s support is inconsistent when your support is virtually non-existent. By the way, thanks for being a testing ground for our arms.”

All I can say to this politely is that you’re misinformed. After the initial recognition of Israel by the US, not one single penny of US government funds was directed towards Israel until after the 6-Day War. The few sales of arms made during that period were always made through third parties (such as the sale of 60 M-47 Patton Tanks in 1964, which were sold (for cash on delivery) to Israel via the Bundeswehr when Germany was provided with more modern M-60 Patton tanks; the tanks arrived in Israel stripped of radios, weapons, drive trains and engines—in other words, they were shells of tanks requiring extensive rebuilding and re-equipping before they could be used).

Marcus: “Come back with that excuse when your soldiers are fighting Iraqi insurgents alongside our Marines.”

Give me one single example of US American military that fought alongside Israeli soldiers with the approval of the US government. George Bush I specifically denied Israel the right to join the coalition for “Desert Storm” in 1991.

Marcus: “Are Muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Egypt, Kenya and Tanzania supporters of state-sponsored terror?

“Do you recognize the list? These countries suffered from the vile actions of Al Qaeda from 1998-2008. Al together, over 800 people died in explosions and attacks on their soil. These Muslim nations have sided with America on the global war against terror.”

Egypt created the PLO in 1964 when President Nasser appointed a Cairo-born Egyptian Army officer to organize the fedayun gangs operating from the Gaza Strip. That officer’s name was Mohammed Abdel Rahman Abdel Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini (better known as Yasser Arafat). Over the years, Saudi Arabia poured millions of petro-dollars into terrorist organizations such as the PLO, PFLP, et al. Indonesia provided training sites and logistical support for a number of terrorist groups, including the PLO, the IRA, Baader-Meinhof, Italian Red Army and the Japanese Red Army—so, yes, I would say that those countries have supported terrorism in the past. They became targets when they stopped supporting terrorism.

Marcus: “As far as the casualty figures in the Gaza operation, I said that 1,200 civilians and militants died during the ground offensive. ‘A hundred’ was a figure to represent how ragtag the enemy you faced was. Hamas, no matter how dangerous, never fielded an organized, elite armed force as compared to your military. The offensive was a brutal example of “using a howitzer to eliminate a gnat”. (layman’s terms: overkill)”

Col. Richard Kemp (Ret.), a former British Army officer disagrees with you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw

But the “proportionality issue” has always been a good buzzword for Palestinian supporters. What IS a proportional response, anyway? Perhaps Israel should just fire off an equivalent missile into the Gaza Strip for each Qassam, Grad or mortar bomb fired into Israel. Would that satisfy your need for a “proportional response”?

Hundreds of articles and tens of thousands of words have been written on this subject. In short, the concept of “proportionality” has nothing to do with a “tit-for-tat” response, but with the use of minimum force to obtain an objective. For example, if an enemy sniper fires on your troops from a civilian home, carpet bombing the entire neighborhood to neutralize the sniper is disproportional but destroying the building he is firing from is not. It’s also interesting (and pertinent) to understand that international law will blame the sniper for any civilian deaths incurred in the proportional neutralization, because it was his belligerent actions that brought about those deaths. Yes, I suppose you could claim that the army should send a squad of soldiers to neutralize the sniper, but international law does not demand that any commander endanger his own soldiers for the sake of protecting an enemy civilian population.

Marcus: “I appreciated that you saw the lunacy involved someone stealing Obama’s prayer. However, I’m certain no state-sponsored operative committed the thievery. It was some anti-American idiot among our so-called allies.”

Actually, I’m pretty sure it was some unprincipled, greedy SOB who sold it to the media.

Marcus: “Al Qaeda targeted our nation because we supported Israel and interfered in Middle East affairs for the sake of getting cheap oil. President Bush tried to pull a ‘power play’ under the guise of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Obama understood that. He apologized to the Muslim nations disrespected by Bush’s pre-emptive invasion and subterfuge. His actions had nothing to do with making Israelis not feel ‘worried’ about their security.”

Wrong. Al Qaeda targeted the WTC because a reactionary radical Islamist decided that the United States was “the Great Satan” and stood in the way of an Islamic Caliphate ruling the world. The US would have been targeted even if Israel did not exist.

Marcus: “And to end, I wasn’t being invariably one-sided. I presented both sides equal and fair.”

Sorry, no cigar. Not once did you mention any Palestinian or Arab aggression against Israel although there are plenty of examples, from the basic Arab refusal to accept UN Resolution 191 on the Partition of Palestine back in 1947 and onwards.

Marcus: “Jordan, Syria and Lebanon have been put on notice for their support of state-sponsored terror. Iran’s president was just in New York late last year.
Obama has the situation well in hand. Have faith.”

I wish I could be as sure of that as you are.

Marcus: “I read your bio and I find it intriguing. You enlisted with the IDF. Now, are IDF regular military or paramilitary? That is important because regular military are bound to obey the Geneva Conventions of 1954.”

“Paramilitaries operate outside the National Army. That’s where you get the ethnic cleansings during the Balkan Wars between 1991-2002. That’s where you get the tribal massacres, rapes and mutilations from RUF (Revolutionary Front) militia in Sierra Leone. Paramilitaries are no different than armed thugs with no codes of honor in war.”

“Please clarify your stance as a soldier or a butcher.”

I suppose it’s easier to attack the person that requires you to think than it is to research and rebut the things I’ve brought up in my responses. At any rate, it’s a typical tactic of a person who’s run out of arguments and facts. So is this bombardment of repetitive posts with some of your personal issues unrelated to the original post.

(Getting back to that issue for a moment, here are two articles from today’s “Ha’Aretz”, a left-wing morning paper, about the film clip that started this thread:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1090967.html

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1092485.html

Both articles leave no doubt that this was a group of US Americans and that their statements do not represent Israeli public opinion.)

You expose your ignorance of Israel when you ask this question. Any informed person knows that the last of the “paramilitary” organizations in Israel were outlawed in 1948, when Etzel and Lehi personnel were absorbed into the newly-formed IDF and distributed among new and existing units. If you’ve never heard of these two organizations, run a search for them and learn something.

All my enemies had their wounds in the front of their bodies, and I have never acted against anyone who was not trying to kill me.

Marcus: “Also, I’m speaking from someone who has seen violence; especially against African-Americans in my life.”

I wonder if you think that even the most violent group of white supremacists beating a black can compare to the violence of a squad-level live-fire exercise, let alone situations in a real war… as a veteran of three wars and several lesser actions, I’d have to say that whatever you might think, your experience with real violence is highly limited unless you’re a combat veteran.

Marcus: “Jews aren’t the only victims of mass murder and suffering. Unfortunately, black people own that.”

No one ever said they were. But even you will have to agree that unlike the main target of the Nazis, Jews, along with Gypsies, Poles, Russians, Slavs, Czechs, Hungarians and anyone considered an “untermensch” by the Nazi authorities (including physically and mentally handicapped, homosexuals, lesbians and political dissenters), blacks have never been the target of industrialized murder by an entire nation. Native Americans, Canadian First Nations, Australian Aborigines, Maoris, South American Indians and black Africans all have greater claims to genocide than US blacks.

Marcus: “But, we haven’t waged a campaign of occupation and terrorism against White America.”

There were black leaders who advocated just such a course of action. It never happened only because of clearer-thinking leaders like Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., who understood such tactics would not only be futile, but would be counter-productive. The Palestinians have had no such leaders. My parents and I participated in Dr. King’s March on Washington in 1963, did you and your parents?

Marcus: “But, you have against impoverished Arabs in Gaza.”

Please spare me the empty rhetoric. The Palestinians have long been the world’s highest-paid refugees, with privileges far beyond those of any other group of refugees in history. No other refugee population has ever had a UN organization dedicated to perpetuating their refugee status (UNWRA). Corruption is rampant in Palestinian society’s infrastructure; clan feuds and vigilante law are common—“honor killings”, summary executions of suspected “collaborators”, torturing prisoners and much more.

While you wail over the “impoverished Arabs in Gaza”, Hamas, Fatah and their cronies grow rich taxing the tunnel smugglers, stealing EU, US and UN funds intended for infrastructure and development, drive around in the latest armored Beemers and Mercedes cars, wear designer suits and grow fat on their loot. Yasser Arafat stole an estimated $3 BILLION from the Palestinian Authority that still hasn’t been found and his widow lives in luxury in Paris on a multi-million dollar stipend.

Marcus: “Hamas and Hezbollah aside, they are funded by Iran. That is your real enemy.”

So what are you suggesting—that Israel attack Iran? Maybe that is the answer, but that would be a violation of international law unless it can be proven beyond any shadow of doubt that Iran was committing an act of war. For the time being, Israel has to deal with the clear and present danger, not with a distant enemy that attacks through proxies and hides its tracks from public view.

Marcus: “You can’t tell me a five year-old, Palestinian child is a threat worthy of murder.”

No, but you can’t tell me that a 5-year-old Israeli child is a legitimate target for Hamas, either. The difference lies in the fact that Hamas deliberately targets children, women, the elderly… the only criteria is that the target be a Jew… and their indiscriminate bombings fail even in that—almost a third of the victims over the past 10 years have been non-Jewish Israelis.

Marcus: “Just because people oppose your actions, it doesn’t make them anti-Semitic.”

That would depend on their underlying motive. If we’re talking about simple criticism of Israeli policies with the desire to change and progress, then I would have to be considered anti-Semitic as well—I’ve criticized government decisions, signed petitions and participated in demonstrations often enough. However, IF the criticism is leveled against Israel while ignoring or excusing acts, actions and statements made by Palestinians, it does become anti-Semitism. It’s also anti-Semitism when you criticize Israeli policies and approve of similar US and British military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan (it’s hypocritical, too).

So is the latest “politically correct” claim, “I’m not anti-Semitic, I’m anti-Zionist”. Read what Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. had to say on that topic: “When approached by a student who attacked Zionism, Dr. Martin Luther King responded: ‘When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking anti-Semitism.’” (From Seymour Martin Lipset, “The Socialism of Fools—The Left, the Jews and Israel,” Encounter, (December 1969), p. 24.)

Marcus: “There is a better solution than to turn Gaza City into the world’s most dangerous ghetto.”

That was done by the Egyptians between 1948 and 1967, before there was any “occupation” and before there were any “occupied territories”. By the way, according to the UN, they are not “occupied territories”, but “disputed territories”. Talk to a lawyer who knows international law to find out the difference.

Marcus: “You’ve become what your enemies are.”

Ah, yes, that old slogan again. The problem with empty slogans and buzzwords is that some day, you have to put up or shut up. Back this statement with facts. Here are some for you:

Israel notified civilians to evacuate certain areas during the Gaza War—the Hamas reaction was to issue calls for civilians to come forward as human shields to “protect the shahid”; Hamas fired missiles indiscriminately on civilian towns without warning.

Hamas ordered its fighters to discard their uniforms and fight in civilian clothes; Israel did not.

Hamas made extensive use of human shields, both willing and unwilling; the IDF did not.

Hamas deliberately fought, stored arms and concealed themselves among the non-combatant population, used sites protected under international law as strong points and endangered their own civilian population in direct violation of those international laws you so strongly accuse Israel of violating; while Israel did not.

Remember these facts when you make use of this slogan.

Marcus: “The reason I say this is because I’ve seen white cops brutalize blacks for no reason. I suffered bigotry from police sworn to “protect and serve”. I have also seen firsthand white offenders kill blacks and get acquitted.”

Pardon me, but as horrible and unjust as this is, what does it have to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict? I see this every day, when Israel gets castigated for responding to terror activities, while Palestinians are never even mentioned. Try the way last week’s Palestinian attempt to plant explosives was treated in some papers: Israeli forces that returned fire were roasted by the “Guardian”, which ignored the fact that the Palestinians opened fire on the IDF first.

Marcus: “In your case, you have 55 Arab nations at a state of declared war against you. Obviously, 55 Arab nations all unified would destroy Israel, but that hasn’t happened yet. Why?”

The Organization of the Islamic Conference has 57 self-declared Islamic states as members; of these, 22 are Arab countries, the remaining 35 countries are not. Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia, etc. are not Arab countries.

Of the 22 Arab countries, only four have common borders with Israel, and two of those have signed peace treaties with Israel. Any attempt by other countries to attack Israel (except with missiles) would have to violate the sovereignty of those countries, something each of them guards jealously against other Arab states.

Marcus: “Because all of these nations have different views on how to deal with your country. Most of these nations have lost thousands of soldiers in wars against Israel. A declaration of war is a declaration. It’s the implementation that’s dangerous. Also, you have a country’s worth of ‘hostages’ in the people of Gaza. Whether you want to admit it or not, you’re keeping Arabs as hostages. Your policy is no different than the past apartheid regime of South Africa. No good will come out of it.”

Which misconception shall I start with? First of all, the list of Arab countries that ever actually participated physically in ANY war against Israel with significant military force is comparatively short: Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and a Palestinian Irregular force that was more interested in looting “Jewish Gold” than it was in conquering Israel (in 1948). Arab disunity and mistrust of each other has been one of the more powerful factors in Israel’s survival to date. So has the fact that in the absence of a “big, bad Israeli boogeyman”, at least some of the Arab leaders are afraid their citizens will begin looking inward at the corruption, oppression and outright thievery their leadership commits and they’re afraid for their own lives. Even Muammar Qadhafi spoke of this in a Arab Summit: http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/1731.htm

Israel’s policy is very different from the South African Apartheid policy—once again, you display ignorance and parrot the use of an empty buzzword. South African policies oppressed citizens of its own country, denying them equal rights, higher education and the right to vote. Black South Africans never had the declared intention of “pushing the whites into the sea”. Palestinians lay claim to being a separate nation and do not ask for, desire or accept the idea of becoming Israeli citizens. Jordan and Egypt did not allow Palestinians access to education—the only universities in the West Bank and Gaza were established under Israeli authority. Every year tens of thousands of Palestinians are treated by Israeli doctors—white South African doctors refused to treat blacks… so where is your comparison legitimate?

Marcus: “You must talk to your political leaders and get them to make peace with these nations at any cost. If you won’t make the move, they won’t either. Over 60 years of bloodshed is long enough. Also, tell your leaders to have a detailed plan to either resettle or make life people for the people in Gaza. That humanitarian disaster is a shameful situation for Israel to live with.”

Allow me to take this one from back to front… Even today, with almost open warfare between Gaza and Israel, West Bank Palestinians are far better off than those living in Lebanon and Syria. Barred from employment, healthcare, education and travel, Palestinians in Lebanese and Syrian refugee camps are in far worse shape than Palestinians under Israeli control—yet you seem to be ignorant of their existence. Amnesty international and Human Rights Watch are not, and they have written numerous reports on these camps. Here’s an example:
http://www.amnesty.org.au/news/comments/4737/

Did you know that at the time about 650,000 Palestinian Arab “refugees” (more about this later) were created by a combination of Arab and Israeli actions, some 900,000 Jewish refugees from Arab states were also created, wholly by the actions of those Arab states? These refugees were forced to leave assets worth billions of dollars behind—they were refugees who had lived in their countries of origin for as much as 2,600 years (since the Babylonian Diaspora) and their only crime was being Jewish. No one made a “detailed plan” to resettle them, and over 600,000 were absorbed by tiny Israel, almost sending it into financial collapse—but these refugees got on with their lives, made new ones wherever they went and moved on. If any “detailed plan” is to be made for the Palestinian Arabs, then the Arab states that helped make them refugees have to participate in the solution, too.

If you want to learn more about the Jewish refugees, start with these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands

http://www.jimena.org/ (Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa)

Arab leaders have made moves in only one direction—rejectionism. Refusal to even hold direct negotiations, starting in 1949 and continuing to this day. Even after Israel’s victory in the 6-Day War, the government practically begged the Arab states to sit down and talk—and were answered by the Khartoum Resolution: “No peace with Israel; NO recognition of Israel; NO negotiations with Israel”. Anwar Sa’adat was assassinated for breaking the wall of refusal.

“Peace at any cost” is synonymous with “peace at any price”—does that sound familiar? This was the guiding principle of the European powers that sold Czechoslovakia down the river to the Nazis. Israel has no intention of committing suicide, so find another way to make peace. Even if Israelis were to “magically” disappear overnight, leaving the country intact, there would be no peace in the Middle East, and the Palestinian Arabs would still be without a country, since the neighbors would joyfully cut it up between them, leaving the Palestinians out in the cold once more.

Marcus: “I read the history of Arab terror against Israel. I also listened to the documentaries on A&E with Egypt’s Nasser and the PLO leader, Yasser Arafat unifying in hopes of destroying Israel. But that was 1964. Since then, Nasser died and Arafat accepted peace terms with the late Yitzhak Rabin at Camp David. Your nation already destroyed the PLO in Lebanon in 1982. So, what was the purpose behind your statements?”

Was that between “Tattoo Highway” and “Obsessed” or between “Crime 360” and “Dog, the Bounty Hunter”? Do you think this makes you an expert on the Middle East? I’ve read dozens of books, hundreds of journal and newspaper articles from all over the Middle East political spectrum and still consider myself a beginner. When you talk about the “arrogance of the Bush administration”, look in the mirror at your own arrogance.

The PLO destroyed? No, the UN forced a cease-fire and allowed the PLO to sail off to Tunisia with their arms. The PLO was not “destroyed”. Where do you come up with these “facts” of yours?

Arafat, Nasser and Rabin are dead, but their legacies live on—the PLO has not rejected their declared aim of destroying the state of Israel—take a look at the Palestinian National Charter (1968): http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp Pay particular attention to Article 2: “Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.”

Even more telling is Article 24 of the original Palestinian National Charter of 1964, which was deleted from the amended 1968 version. “Article 24: This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah [Jerusalem] Area. Its activities will be on the national popular level in the liberational, organizational, political and financial fields.” (source: http://www.un.int/palestine/PLO/PNA2.html - Web site of the Permanent Observer Mission of Palestine to the UN).

Reach your own conclusions about the meaning of this: mine are that the only objective of the PLO was the replacement of Israel with an Arab Palestinian state, where any non-Muslim Arab would be at best a second-class citizen (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude). THAT, my friend, is APARTHEID, in great big capital letters.

Hamas’ ambition is even more specific: “ Article Eleven: The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

“This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.

“It happened like this: When the leaders of the Islamic armies conquered Syria and Iraq, they sent to the Caliph of the Moslems, Umar bin-el-Khatab, asking for his advice concerning the conquered land - whether they should divide it among the soldiers, or leave it for its owners, or what? After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Moslems, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit. As for the real ownership of the land and the land itself, it should be consecrated for Moslem generations till Judgement Day. Those who are on the land, are there only to benefit from its fruit. This Waqf remains as long as earth and heaven remain. Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void.” http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

With principles like this, what’s left to “negotiate”? A unilateral peace is no peace at all—neither is a “peace” imposed by a third party (such as the US, UN or EU). Who can Israel negotiate with? Did you include these statements in your equation of “peace at any cost”?

Marcus: “Also, I said earlier that both Arab and Israelis had extremists working against the road to peace. Again, I didn’t accuse your side only of being pro-war.”

On the contrary, you have yet to condemn a single action of the Palestinians. Your claim to objectivity is a farce. Why don’t you post (or at least look at) some of the Arab clips I gave the links for?

Marcus: “In addition, your nation has been guilty of putting out anti-Arab propaganda as your enemies put out anti-Israel propaganda. Both parties have been guilty of using the media to promote their political agenda. You adopted the methods of your enemy. Congratulations.”

Gee, somehow I must have missed the Israeli Prime Minister calling any Arab/Muslim country “a cancer that must be eliminated” or “[Arab country name] must be wiped off the map”. Can you tell me when it was said and who said it? Do you mean incitement like this?

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2099.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2095.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2093.htm

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2080.htm

Marcus: “Furthermore, the tally of atrocities committed against your nation is staggering. But, we have suffered grievously from supporting your policies and the occupation of Gaza. Your issues have made Great Britain, America, Spain and other Western nations targets of terrorism. No longer are we just dealing with Osama Bin Laden and 20,000 Al Qaeda militants. Because of your heinous actions and President Bush’s arrogance, there is a worldwide, Islamic extremist movement fighting the West. They have national armies at their disposal as well. The blame has to be shared around, but your nation’s atrocities against Arab citizens gets the bulk of it. And you’re too blind to see it.”

No, you have “suffered grievously” for the policies of the president you elected in 2000, whether he stole the election or not. The fact that these same extremists have fought Jews in Arab lands and in Israel for hundreds of years obviously makes no impression on you. Learn about the supremacist concepts of Islam, the basic “commandment” for Jihad against the “infidel” and the status of the dhimma in Muslim countries.

“Heinous actions”—oh yes, bombing innocent Palestinians in shopping malls, coffee shops, falafel stands, public buses and city streets, drive-by shootings, attempted bombings of hospitals, firing missiles at random towards civilian towns and villages and pledging wholesale slaughter… NOT! These “heinous actions” have all been committed by Palestinians so many times that space won’t allow an itemized list here, yet you say not one word about them.

Now take a look at what you demand: “peace at any cost”—allowing the same thing from the West Bank that has come from Gaza for the past four years, ever since the disengagement. Do you really believe that Hamas will not attempt to take the West Bank just as it took over Gaza? Have you thought of the very real genocide that would occur if 6,000 Qassam missiles were to land in the Tel-Aviv/Central area of Israel rather than in the sparsely-populated Negev?

Of course not—that’s why you insist on “peace at any cost”.

Marcus, your response is typical of a person whose attitude is, “My mind’s made up, don’t confuse me with facts.”

Marcus: “Your views are very disturbing. Palestinians are ‘the world’s highest paid refugees’. You blame Egyptians from 1948 to 1967 of making Gaza City into the ‘world’s most dangerous ghetto’. I would write down each inaccuracy you said but there are only 24 hours in a day.

If my views are disturbing to you, it can only be caused by the presentation of too much information that you don’t want to hear.

It’s a fact confirmed by UNWRA and other sources that the Palestinian refugees (at least on paper) have the highest per capita income from relief funds of any refugee group in history. If this relief doesn’t reach the “average” refugee it’s purely the result of Palestinian corruption. Can you name any other group of refugees in history that had a UN agency like UNWRA dedicated to it? If you don’t like to hear the truth, it’s just too bad.

Who do you think put the Palestinians in refugee camps in 1948, rather than letting them go wherever they pleased? Palestinians attempting to enter the Sinai and Egypt were forced back into Gaza at gunpoint by Egyptian troops. Who do you think kept them in those refugee camps for 19 years, denying them work, education, healthcare, freedom of movement, social services and infrastructure? What the Egyptians DID provide was weapons and materials for committing terrorist acts inside Israel and a blind eye to their commission.

Marcus: “To start with, your nation is in complete control of the residents of Gaza and the West Bank. You have yet granted the citizens living there complete autonomy. The Palestinian Authority has to answer to your government. If you have a problem with Arabs having too much freedom, you can implement crackdowns any time you wish. What kind of freedom is that?

I think that if “Israel was in complete control” of the residents of Gaza and the West Bank there would be no problem with terrorism. From 1967 until 1987, when the first Intifada started, there were no checkpoints on the roads, no crossing points at the Gaza border, work permits were available for anyone who could obtain work inside Israel and the Israeli government permitted the establishment of universities, trade schools and other tertiary education that the Egyptian and Jordanian governments denied the Palestinians. In addition, Israeli universities opened their doors to qualified Palestinian students—Marwan Barghouti, for example, is a graduate of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem with a Master’s degree in International Relations (and he “repaid” Israel by masterminding the deaths of some 30 Israelis).

Virtually all of the terrorist acts during this period were committed by “visiting firemen” (terrorists who were not residents of the West Bank or Gaza).

Marcus: “Your military operations in Gaza last winter earned condemnation from President Bush and the United Nations. Your forces deliberately barred emergency workers to provide aid to trapped and starving Palestinians. Of course, you refused to guarantee their safety in a war zone. It was a war zone your government created.

Yes, Bush and the UN wanted Israel to “continue to exercise restraint” when Hamas declared that they would not renew the truce that was about to end and broke the cease-fire with Qassam and mortar fire into Israel three days before the cease-fire was scheduled to end (a cease-fire which Hamas broke three times a week on the average). See: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1046509.html
[Note: I specifically chose “Ha’Aretz”, which is a left-wing paper that often supports Palestinian claims and prints pro-Palestinian editorials. If this is a “propaganda” source, it’s a pro-Palestinian one.)

According to the Israeli Foreign Ministry, 1,571 rockets and 1,531 mortar shells were fired into Israel during 2008. Do the math: 1,571 + 1,531 = 3,102. 3,102 / 366 = 8.5 rockets per day. (I’d like to see your reaction to 8.5 explosions per day in Des Moines Iowa, fired by some extremist group. My guess is that you would be screaming for the US government to “stop those responsible at all costs”.)

Marcus: “Hey, our Armed Forces took the heat from civilian casualties in Hadidha and Fallujah. What happened was that our army listened and backed off their offensives in those areas. You didn’t do enough to save the lives of civilians in your quest to annhilate Hamas.

If you can’t tell the difference between the kind of carpet bombing the USAF is famous for to the policy of precision targeting practiced by the IAF, then I can’t help you. You’re comparing apples to potatoes here.

Marcus: “You checked out some of the links noted. There was little truth, but mostly propaganda. You only focused on links that spoke from your side only. (Typical response)

You’re the one defending the Palestinians—I have no need to do so, or even to be objective. You make accusations against my country and I present evidence to defend it. On the other hand, you haven’t provided one single link or concrete reference to back up any of your claims—not one newspaper article, not a single web site, book or paper that supports your words. (P.S.: I have specifically avoided using so-called “Zionist Propaganda” references such as “Arutz Sheva”, the Netanyahu web site and other far right-wing sources.)

Marcus: “And, some of those students (whether you want to believe or not) were Israelis. They were stupid bigots who shot off their mouths to a camera. But, who knows? They probably told all of native-born students to leave before they began shooting the video.

How obtuse can you get? Even the producer agreed that the interviewees were US Americans—you’re the only one who insists that they were anything else. I do agree that they were stupid, drunken bigots who shot their mouths off in front of a camera.

Marcus: “As far as your proposal regarding the 6,000 Qassam missiles landing in Tel Aviv/Central area of Israel rather than the sparsely-populated Negev, you probably shot off as many in densely-populated Gaza City.”

Proposal? Not at all. It’s a reasonable scenario, given the past actions of Hamas.

With this sentence, you blame Israel for the location of the war it was forced to fight. How logical… NOT! Why don’t you blame Hamas for creating the situation in the first place? So much for the “objectivity” you claim.

Marcus: “You constantly brought up history dating back to the Babylon Disporia. The Israelis were refugees period. They felt slavery from Egypt back in the days of Moses. You never resided in Transjordan until the Balfour Declaration (which the Arab settlers knew nothing about) came into effect in 1936. Try refuting that fact, Michael.”

This would assume that the Balfour Declaration was “hidden” from sight for 19 years from its signing in 1917. That would be a bit difficult, seeing that the Weitzmann-Feisal Agreement was signed in 1919 on the basis of the Balfour Declaration. Get your facts straight. There’s nothing to refute, except your inaccuracies.

Learn to read what is written, not what you want to see. My reference to the Babylonian Diaspora is related to the Jews who were expelled from Arab states such as Iraq, where the Jewish community there had been in residence (as citizens) since the Babylonian Diaspora. In Iraq alone, a Jewish community of around 140,000 in 1948 remains today with less than 100 people, mostly elderly. Do you suppose all of the others left Iraq for “ideological reasons”, as the Iraqi government claims, leaving behind the homes they had lived in for 2,600 years, all the assets accrued (each was allowed to leave with $50 and one suitcase)? Don’t you think the riots, murders and anti-Jewish laws enacted, starting in 1941 had something to do with it?

Judging by your comment, “the Israelis were refugees period”, one has to understand that you condemn “the Jews” to being refugees eternally. The only comment I can make to that statement is a very rude one that you won’t like at all.

How could anyone have resided in “TransJordan” until its illegal creation in 1922? Do you even know where TrandsJordan was or what it was? Your statement here leaves no doubt that you don’t.

Marcus: “Also, when the British government signed a ”white paper” agreement giving resettled, Jewish land back to the Arabs, you responded by committing terrorism against both groups. The Irgun and the Stern Gang were two, splinter terrorist groups formed by Israelis. You blamed Arabs for being terrorist. I just showed you again that you committed the same terrorism.

Once again, your chronology is off. Neither White Paper (1922 and 1939) disposed of any land in any sense. Read both of them:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/brwh1922.asp

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/brwh1939.asp

Or is the Yale University Law School’s Avalon Project an “anti-Arab web site”?

Since the Irgun was established in 1931, it’s hard to connect it to either of the White Papers. It’s easier to connect it to the Arab riots of 1929—which were terrorism, pure and simple. Lehi, or the Stern Gang, was a breakaway splinter group from the Irgun, established in 1940, because the Irgun agreed to cease hostilities against the British for the duration of WW II, while Avraham Stern felt that they should fight rather than support the British in the war. Both groups ceased to exist when the British left Palestine in 1948.

Marcus: “You took land (like America did) that didn’t belong to you. You used military force (like America did) to enforce your thievery of that land. Your nation enacted laws (like America did) that forced out the original inhabitants of that land. Did the links you noted present those facts? Strangely, not one did.

Your analogies don’t hold water. Israel never had a policy of “Manifest Destiny” (like the US did). Israel never took land in an offensive war against its neighbors (like the US did), but only in defensive wars, when it was attacked. The American Indian never tried to drive the whites into the sea, and never claimed this as an objective.

Marcus: “Words don’t need to speak what actions do. Your government has an eye for an eye against Hamas and Hezbollah operatives and their leaders. That’s all fine and good considering your current situation. But, you should keep the tally of civilian casualties to a minimum and refrain from missile attacks on Gaza City streets.

“Stick with the C-4 in in the cellphone technique.”

So you disapprove of honest warfare, but approve of assassination and terrorism? I have no comment to make on this, except that you should weigh your words carefully before you write them for all to see.

Marcus: “Both groups with President Obama’s help can reach a firm peace agreement. But, your nation shouldn’t have an attitude that giving Arab nations something is losing everything.”

Explain this to the Palestinians, whose “all or nothing” attitude has been the major obstacle in any and all negotiations to date.

Marcus: “You’re so worried about holding onto ill-gotten territory that took killing thousands of human beings to obtain. It’s just land that was never yours to begin with. You have no right to live where you want while 650,000-800,000 Palestinians are confined to a slum.”

Rhetoric without any basis in facts will not help you. When the Ottoman Empire collapsed after WW I, the League of Nations recognized “the right of the Jewish people to a homeland in Palestine”. After WW II, the UN reaffirmed this commitment. Do you reject the decisions of these two international bodies?

Look to Arab politics for the reasons the Palestinians “live in a slum” before you speak. While Israel, with a population of less than 1 million, a land area of 8,015 square miles and few natural resources absorbed 650,000 of the Jews expelled from Arab lands, while the Arab countries, with a 1948 population of over 100 million, a land area of 5,280,000 square miles and oil revenues could not absorb 650,000 Palestinian Arab refugees that they themselves helped to create.

To help you, here are some quotes from Arab leaders, UN personnel and foreign journalists about their treatment of the Palestinians:

“The Arab exodus, initially, at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem exiled by the British for siding with the Germans in WWII, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.” Kenneth Bilby, an American correspondent covering Palestine during the war. (1940- “New Star in the Near East”, New York, 1950, pp. 30-31)

“The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and they would return in a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the “Zionist gangs” very quickly and there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile.” Monsignor George Hakim, then the Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee (a leading Christian Arab personality in Palestine) to a Beirut newspaper, Sana al Janub, August 16, 1948.

“I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the Arab States in opposing partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously, and they must share in the solution of the problem.” Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leader of the Palestinian Arabs, in a Beirut newspaper, also reported in the Daily Telegraph on September 6, 1948.

“...The occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade… the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean... advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down…”
(General Secretary of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha as related by chief spokesman for the Arab League, Habib Issa — (Al Hoda, June 8, 1951 - A NY Lebanese daily newspaper).

“The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in.” (Jordan Daily Newspaper, Ad Dijaa, September 6, 1954.)

“The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce . . . they rather preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town. This is in fact what they did.” (UN Security Council Official Records - Third Year N. 62, April 23, 1948, p 14)

“The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war.” General Glubb Pasha (the British officer who helped build the Transjordanian Army) wrote this in the London Daily Mail (August 12, 1948).

Alexander Galloway, a former director of the UNRWA activities in Jordan said, “The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations, and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don’t give a damn whether the refugees live or die.”

“Since 1948 Arab leaders have used the Palestine people for selfish political purposes.” King Hussein of Jordan (1960)

Is King Hussein of Jordan an “anti-Arab source”? Even the Palestinian Authority admits the truth of the refugee issue—that the Arab League encouraged and even ordered the Arab exodus out of Palestine.

Marcus: “If you think what you’re doing is right, you will help condemn your country into a war that no one will come help you survive.”

If you think what you’re doing is right, you are promoting genocide, the declared objective of the Palestinian National Charter and the Hamas Covenant.

Marcus: “And I don’t need to see another anti-Arab link as to support your argument.”

What you’re saying here is that you don’t want ANY link that’s not pro-Arab. Where have I given any “anti-Arab links”? Or are you offended by the translation of things you don’t want to hear? Don’t shoot the messenger, shoot the person who said those things…

Here’s something YOU don’t want to hear: I agree that Israel has committed injustices against the Palestinian Arabs; I also state that the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab world in general have committed injustices against Jews and Israel. The one-sided “justice” you demand is no justice at all. For a real conciliation and a real peace, both the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab world have to admit to their injustices, not just accuse others of injustice against them. Without this admission, there will be no justice, ever—and probably no peace.

Marcus: “Any human being with a semblance of intelligence would see that I’m presenting both sides of the argument. You have beef with the Arabs and Palestinians. Okay, we all know that. But you don’t have clean hands, Michael.”

Nowhere have I said that Israel has “clean hands”. What I do say, and what you refuse to accept, is that neither side has “clean hands”. Let me say this: the only “beef” I (or most any Israeli) have with the Arabs is that they won’t let us alone to get on with our lives in peace.

Marcus: “You can’t answer my response with the Balfour Declaration and the fact that Israelis are refugees themselves.”

On the contrary, I have answered, but you ignore the answer. Most important of all, you refuse to answer my pointed question: Must “the Jews” be the only population group in the world that must remain refugees forever? If that’s your position, then why? Did we spring from nowhere, with no claim to a homeland? Explain your rationale or admit that you’re biased (murderously prejudiced might be a better description).

Marcus: “You talk about carpet bombing to precision bombing. For what? Your planes bombed a hospital in Gaza City. You can blame one Hamas sniper from taking position there, but you’d be proving my ”howitzer to kill a gnat” reference.”

What was happening on the grounds of that hospital? Do you know? Obviously, you don’t. When one side uses sites specifically exempted from targeting for combat use, under international law the perpetrator is the one who uses the site for belligerent purposes, and it becomes a legitimate target due to that. These sites include places of worship (Hamas fired anti-aircraft weapons from inside several mosques and stored weapons and munitions in others), schools (Hamas places missile launchers and mortars in the courtyards of schools, adjacent to the school walls—and one school, with children in it, was booby-trapped by Hamas, as was the Gaza Zoo), hospitals (Hamas has sited missile launchers adjacent to hospitals, build fortified weapons stockpiles under hospitals and even hid their leaders in a bomb shelter specifically built for that purpose under a hospital). Once again, you give a “free pass” to every Palestinian action and reprimand Israel for every action it takes—then you claim to be “objective”.

Marcus: “Yes, you presented facts from your links. I presented facts available on A&E television, wikipedia, Newsone (Blackplanet.com) and other credible and objective sources. That’s one of the differences between you and me. I’m objective. You’re not. You only want what Arab extremists want and that is a race or group of people annhilated.”

As long as you present no links or references, I can’t believe you choose any source but your own prejudices, which are glaringly obvious.

Marcus: “You call yourself a soldier, but you think like a mercernary (without the money being paid). You blame your actions on orders given from the top. Pass the blame.”

I love your “doublethink” here—even George Orwell would have been hard put to imagine something like this. This has got to be straight from one of those articles calling the IDF “Nazis” while ignoring the Palestinian depredations. Once more, so much for ”objectivity”.

Marcus: “As far as your contributions to civil rights, you must’ve felt like a hypocrite. You marched so southern blacks could get equal rights, but your life was about continuing the oppression of Palestinian civilians. Now, I didn’t bring up the terrorist angle here. Like it or not, not all Arabs desired for your extermination.”

I marched in the “Poor People’s March on Washington”, not a march for blacks, whites or any other specific group. Dr. King would be the first to disavow your comments here and be among the first to support Israel. His opinions are on record for all to see. The hypocrite here is you—a prejudiced person who thinks that the only “deserving” are those he decides are deserving.

Marcus: “‘Israel never took an offensive war against its neighbors (like the US did), but a defensive war only when it was attacked’. You stand by that statement? You stand by that statement with your life?

“If so, you’d had better check your history books. You already forgot the ”glorious” (sarcasm) anniversary of June 6-12, 1967. The fact that your air force invaded Egyptian air space and blasted Nasser’s planes on the runways. You pounded, punished and ran over retreating Egyptian troops in the Sinai Desert. Yep, that was a totally defensive engagement!

“Don’t tell me that I’m misinformed when you’re referring to yourself.
History books called the Six Day War a ”pre-emptive strike” by Israel. Try refuting that claim, sir!”

Talk to any lawyer who understands international law. The closure of the Strait of Tiran to Israeli shipping, the expulsion of the UN peacekeeping force from Sinai and the massing of the Egyptian Army at the border were each a “causus belli” [act of war] committed by Egypt. Even the UN admits this and considers Israel’s actions justified under Article 51 of the UN Charter. I won’t even mention the weeks of radio and TV broadcasts from Egypt full of speeches by Nasser about how “the hour had come to drive the Jews into the sea”.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_sixday_backgd.php

http://www.sixdaywar.co.uk/6_day_war_aftermath_prof_adler_context_pt1.htm

The fact that you claim the opposite is a sign of how well the Arab propaganda has been working to re-write history—and how gullible some people can be. ”Misinformed” is putting it mildly.

Marcus: “The Stern Gang ended hostilities after their leader was hunted down and shot. But, the Irgun decided to committ one act of terrorism which became the worst committed at that time.

“Remember the King David Hotel bombing of 1946? Over 90 people perished, even though the Irgun sent a ”warning” approximately 20 minutes before the building was blown up. They targeted British officials, not military, and not soldiers. They targeted Westerners who sided with the British policies. Yes, both sides committed acts of terror against themselves and others. Quit painting the ”murderers” tag on just Arabs. You’re deserving of the same brush stroke as well.”

I hold no brief for either Lehi or the Irgun, but enough experts have examined the case and decided that the British Mandate Secretariat, CID headquarters and archives were a legitimate target.

The fact is that not one, but two warnings were telephoned in by the Irgun, the second one reaching the British officer of the day, who replied to the caller telling him the building must be evacuated: “I don’t take orders from a bloody Jew.” This officer was relieved of his duties, returned to England and quietly court-martialed so the British would never have to admit that they had any culpability for the carnage. The officer was thrown out of the British Army for dereliction of duty.

While the loss of life was not intentional, it did cause virtually open warfare between the Irgun and the Hagana and heavy crackdowns by the British.

To tell the truth, I’m surprised you haven’t brought up Dir Yassin or the 2002 “Jenin Massacre” in your biased accusations. They’re stock arguments for many Israel-bashers like you. Too bad that Bir Zeit University and the BBC both found that Dir Yassin was no massacre, but a pitched battle, and that the ICRC, Amnesty International and the UN found the so-called “Jenin Massacre” to be a lie.

Yet even those proven lies don’t make you check every single Palestinian claim thoroughly before believing it… I guess the second part of the “big lie principle” doesn’t hold true for you.

It especially amazes me that all this bile comes from you as a reaction to a bunch of bigoted, stupid, drunken American students who are presently in Jerusalem. If I had my choice, I’d send them back to the US with PNG on their passports.

Marcus: “Just because your Straits of Tiran were closed, the UN peacekeeping force was expelled and Egypt was masssing along the border, you felt the need for a sneak attack.”

Well, now at least we know where you’re coming from—the only sources describing the 6-Day War as a “sneak attack” are anti-Israel sources. All others term it a “pre-emptive attack—which is what it was. Three acts of war aren’t enough for a response? The US responded after a single act of war more than once.

Marcus: “Your government has implemented an ‘eye for an eye’ mandate on Hamas and Hezbollah leaders. But, when these groups attack inside Israel, they’re called ‘terrorists, murderers and cowards’ by your government.”

If Hamas and Hizballah were to try to assassinate Israeli persona at the leadership level, either political or military, I would have more respect for them than I do. As is, they are nothing but gangs of thugs who murder anyone they feel like it, including their own people.

Marcus: “It must be tiresome to come up with excuse after excuse when dealing with someone asking you intelligent questions. You contradicted yourself at least five times in our last two conversations.”

Intelligent questions? Don’t flatter yourself. Regurgitating anti-Israel propaganda is more like it.

Marcus: “You said that you wish Arabs would leave you alone and let you get on with your lives. They will once you return the land your government stole from them. That’s like a burglar telling his victims to ‘go on with their lives’ and not prosecute him for stealing their belongings. That’s a stupid rationale.”

IF it were that simple, the UN would have imposed a solution 60 years ago instead of negotiating a cease-fire. This just shows how much you don’t understand about the background and the conflict itself… let alone your total ignorance of the laws governing it.

Had the Palestinians declared a state in the part of the Mandate allotted them by the UN, this entire argument wouldn’t be necessary, but they didn’t. In a decision to “have it all”, five Arab states and a Palestinian irregular force attacked Israel with the declared objective of slaughtering the Jews and eradicating the state. They lost the gamble—and the state they could have had. Egypt took over the Gaza Strip, Jordan took over the West Bank and Jerusalem and Israel took the rest (less than Egypt and Jordan did).

Why didn’t Jordan and Egypt create a Palestinian state for all those years? No one was stopping them.

Marcus: “Please watch the shows I mentioned and avoid the links you asked me to view. Watch prospective from both sides. Not prospectives from individuals paid to distort the truth or coerced to come up with findings favorable to your extremist views.”

Really? The Arts & Entertainment channel is a better source than BBC and History Channel documentaries? Is it a better source than libraries, too? Are you for real?

Marcus: “Also you said ”since I can’t provide any links or references, I can’t believe you choose any source but your prejudices (which are glaringly obvious).”
Well, if I created all of these information, I should be a multi-millionaire because history books all over the world have taken my ”prejudices” and taught them to their students each and every year. I should sue for plaigarism and copyright infringement (by your analysis).”

I said you DON’T provide links or source references, not that you “couldn’t”. Are you ashamed of your sources, or are you just afraid to reveal what they are because they’ll prove bias?

Marcus: “And you insist that only American students were interviewed on camera bashing Obama. Forget the dialects of some of those interviewed. Forget the setting (Jerusalem’s bar district). And completely disavow the randomness each person was asked to comment. They were all “plants” by your analysis. It was a conspiracy to make Israel look bad once again! Oh give it a rest, Michael!”

Randomness? The clip producer admits he interviewed members of the same group in a single bar (the clip itself shows this)—and unlike most US towns, Jerusalem doesn’t even have a “bar district”. No Israeli town does except Tel Aviv. No conspiracy, just a hatchet job by an interviewer with an agenda.

Here’s a quote from Ha’Aretz: “Blumenthal and Joseph [the producer and interviewer] could only confirm that from the statements the kids made, they were a mixture of American-Israelis, students on study abroad, Yeshiva students, and a few Birthright alumni” [“Birthright” is a program run in the US to raise the awareness of Israel in Jewish youth that the producer himself participated in]. Can you accept the words of the producer and interviewer?

Marcus: “I do appreciate that I made you see the light that Israel have no clean hands either. You’re coming to be more objective whether you want to or not.”

Marcus, I’ve always been more objective than you—I live here, and see more of what happens, warts and all, than you could ever hope to see from 7,000-plus miles away.

Marcus: “So you supported the attack on noncombatants. Not soldiers, nocombatants. Ok. And when that Palestinian gunman shot seven students dead in the Jewish seminary, did he determine noncombatants as legitimate targets as well? You both committed similar acts of aggression on noncombatants.”

Once again, you show your ignorance. The British Mandate government was a military government, made up of military personnel. The civilians killed were not British, but locals, Jews, Muslims and Christians. (BTW, the “experts” that I included are such people as Prof. Louis René Beres [International Law, Purdue university], the West Point Military Academy History Department; Sandhurst Military Academy and others at the same level. Are they “supporters for Israeli extremists”? If they are, then so are Mahmoud Ahmadinijad and Khaled Mashaal.)

Marcus: “Included in the King David bombing were tourists who had nothing to do with the land dispute between the Jews and Arabs. They had nothing to do with the civil war both groups precipitated.”

More ignorance. The wing that housed the British Secretariat was closed to tourists except for those on official business. The majority of the dead and injured were hotel staff, British Secretariat personnel and passers-by outside the building. Some tourists may have been killed or injured by flying rubble, but the main target was the British wing of the hotel.

This doesn’t diminish the fact that there were warnings telephoned in to the hotel twice, and that the British ignored them. Had the warnings not been ignored, the death toll would have been significantly lower, if not avoided entirely.

That’s a far cry from walking into a crowded mall, shouting “Allah hu Akbar!” and blowing yourself up with a shrapnel-loaded bomb.

One last note on the period of the King David incident period: Arab irregulars killed more British soldiers and civilian officials during the Mandate period than Jewish resistance ever did, but you’ll never hear that from the British government—you have to dig into numerous newspaper articles, dry history books and personal diaries published by reporters and others who witnessed events at the time. I suppose that’s too much work for someone who gets his information from the Arts & Entertainment channel…

You’ll excuse me now, but I have a project due in two days, so I probably won’t be back before Friday afternoon. Have a nice day, Marcus.

Marcus, kindly read this article:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1090967.html

I agree with the concluding paragraph:

“This video either proves that drunken Americans are starting to resemble Kahanists, or Israeli far-rightists have achieved the rhetorical brilliance of drunken American Jewish yahoos. Talking to drunken American Jewish 19-year-olds to gauge Israeli opinion on Obama is like using far-right conservatives to measure American public opinion on gay marriage. You’re speaking to the wrong crowd and at the wrong time of night, only in a country where there is no closing time or public drinking ordinances. One can only imagine what would be caught on film in an American college town under these circumstances.”

Don’t think for one moment that I approve of, agree with or excuse what these kids said. I have nothing but contempt for their stupidity and the opinions they voiced. My only contention is that whatever you may think, the kids in the clip were neither Israeli nor representative of Israeli public opinion. That assumption is just about as correct as assuming that interviews of a Southern Baptist congregation on the topic of same-sex marriage or abortion are “representative of US public opinion”.

Ha’Aretz, a left-wing newspaper, has published several articles, including one containing an interview with the clip’s producer, in which even he admits that they were US Americans, not Israelis. If the editors thought as you do, they would have had no hesitation in saying so, but they’ve consistently said the opposite.

We can agree or disagree on other things, but it’s about time you accepted the evidence on this particular subject and close the file on it.

One last thing:

“History books stated the 6-Day War as a ‘pre-emptive strike’ which destroyed your theory of Israel only fighting ‘defensive’ or when attacked.”

It “destroys” nothing. The facts on the ground remain the same: closing the Strait of Tiran to Israeli shipping was an act of war; the Egyptian removal of the UN Peacekeeping Force was an act of war; the placement of massive forces, including more than 3,000 tanks and several infantry divisions at the Israeli border in Sinai was an act of war. (We know now that the Egyptians were goaded by the USSR with misinformation that Israel was planning to attack Egypt, but no one knew this at that time. The Soviets badly misjudged both the Arab intent and the Israeli reaction.) After much deliberation, the UN decided that the 6-Day War was a defensive war on the part of Israel—otherwise, UN Security Council Resolution 242 would have demanded Israel’s unilateral retreat, which it did not. It demanded a negotiated peace settlement with the return of land as part of the peace agreement—which is exactly what happened, more than 10 years and another war later.